The Debrief: What we learned from Dr Lucy Ryan

BONUS EP 4_DR LUCY RYAN

[00:00:00] Eleanor Mills: Welcome to the Queenager debrief with me, Eleanor Mills. In these companion episodes to the Queenager podcast, I review what we learned from each guest with Women's Centre transformational coach, Wendy Lloyd, so that you can take action and make positive change in your own life. The QueenAger podcast is brought to you by Begin, the age renewal skincare experts.

Stay tuned for how details on how to secure a heavily discounted bottle of their gold standard skin solution. Hey, Wendy. Hi there. This time it's the turn of leadership coach and business book award winning author, Dr. Lucy Ryan. What was your first takeaway? What did we really learn from Lucy? Well,

[00:00:44] Wendy Lloyd: I love that her focus of her research and her book has all been, of course, about, you know, women leaving the workplace.

And she's talked about how, you They've been leaving quietly. The waters close over and I love that she really made the kind of call for us to leave noisily. It's time to [00:01:00] leave noisily and kind of like kick up a bit of a stink basically because it probably doesn't feel like how you want to do it. You feel unappreciated, you feel unseen.

And you kind of go, Oh my goodness, I'm being managed out and she talked about all of that. And so the desire is to kind of like slip away because that shame starts kicking in. But actually, what really, you know, and Lucy calls for is leave noisily, because even if it doesn't change your situation, even if you do still have to go out the door, this is how change happens.

So I think it's a really powerful message for us to really make it clear that this isn't okay. And things need to change. Even if, as I said, you have to go on and leave and then, you know, rethink and realign what you're going to do next.

[00:01:43] Eleanor Mills: Yeah. Well, I mean, that is actually the story of my last three years, as you know, I was made redundant and I did not leave quietly.

I've basically been making a big fuss about it ever since, because I do think that it's right that so many women are what we call the queen age of brain drain and leaving their jobs at [00:02:00] 50. Lots of them are being managed out, or what I call voluntold. Oh, I like that. They're going. Yeah. Um, and it is hugely shameful.

And actually really what I did in writing my book and in setting up Noon was busting that taboo. And everyone said to me, wow, I can't believe that you're talking about the shame of being made redundant. And it was really shameful. It was humiliating. It felt like a death, particularly if you've been doing a career for decades.

you know, two decades or working somewhere for 25 years and then you're suddenly bulleted. We don't talk about the kind of grief and the lack of identity and the kind of loss that comes with leaving the things that has defined you for so long and we need to.

[00:02:40] Wendy Lloyd: Yeah, we do because it is so painful and because that shame has been kind of like injected into the whole experience with, you know, I speak to so many women who are kind of going through redundancy and they are looking for a new job and.

what I see is a bit of a sort of rabbit in the headlight sometimes. I'm kind of like, I really need to get back to [00:03:00] where I was. And, you know, obviously what I'm trying to do is always kind of expand their thinking at this time, because this is like, okay, this is painful, and maybe you will go into another job in a similar sphere or vein.

But this really needs to be an opportunity for you to expand and not to move quickly and for that shame to get bedded in, because you'll carry it with you. So it's a really important thing because it's for ourselves, to release that and say, I don't need to hide this. It's not shameful what's happened to me.

[00:03:31] Eleanor Mills: Yeah, but it's also systemic. Absolutely. I think for every woman listening to this who's feeling shame or has been made redundant, just remember you're really not alone. It's actually completely systemic, particularly in particular industries. Particularly media, advertising, marketing. It's like you get towards 50 and you know That you're basically the time for the bullet is coming, you're going to get whacked.

So I think we talked about this in one of the other debriefs about getting ahead of the wave. So if you can feel that that's coming down the pipe, [00:04:00] there's some interesting research which shows if you make a call, so you start looking for a new job ahead of it ending, that is much better and you feel much more empowered.

And also I really agree with what you say about not necessarily jumping back on the same horse. Yeah. I really didn't want another. big job in media. I'd, I'd done it. I really had been there, done that, got the t shirt. And the point about being a Queenager is that we can pivot into something else. And that we don't have to be defined by what we've done between 25 and 50.

Many of us are pivoting into purpose. We want to do something which feels more meaningful. There's that really, and Lucy talks about this in her book, about that kind of drumbeat of, you know, the next thing. You don't know how much more time you've got left and you want to make it count. Um, and I think so to give yourself.

I say this so often, I feel like a stuck record, but give yourself a period of time. Remember change is difficult. Remember that it can feel shameful, but it isn't, you know, it's not just you, it's everybody. It's [00:05:00] systemic. It's about gendered ageism. And that's one of the things that we're really trying to campaign on.

And the more vocal we can all be about what's happening to us, rather than feeling shameful and shut up or signing an NDA and not being able to talk about it, um, the quicker this will change. Because, you

[00:05:13] Wendy Lloyd: know, we really deserve, when something like this happens to us, to be able to see it as an opportunity.

And it is an opportunity, and as we both know, usually at some point it kicks in as feeling an opportunity. It

[00:05:26] Eleanor Mills: doesn't at the time, though. But it doesn't at

[00:05:27] Wendy Lloyd: the time, exactly, so it's getting to that next place.

[00:05:30] Eleanor Mills: And the most helpful thing that anyone said to me when I was really in a bad way was, change is difficult.

be nice to yourself, have some self compassion, you know, and just let your wounds for a bit, pause, hang on,

[00:05:42] Wendy Lloyd: hang on the hook. But take, but take the breath, whatever you need to do in that breath space, definitely. And

[00:05:46] Eleanor Mills: give you, and just give yourself a kind of magic permission pass to not have to jump into something else.

[00:05:52] Wendy Lloyd: Yeah. And I love that, you know, uh, you know, another takeaway from Lucy's chat was, um, you know, the fact that also, you know, it kind of sits [00:06:00] in line with what we're talking here about how, when, when this stuff can happen to us, when we're we feel like it's the end of everything. But, you know, the need for a shift or a change or a career break can be temporary.

And obviously, as Lucy talks in detail, the system isn't set up to actually provide that as a temporary structure. Um, but the thing is, is that, you know, it therefore comes down to, I think she really set the page, especially when she talked about her own life and looking after her, her mother and her parents.

And you know, about how, again, we have to kind of tap back into, well, what, what's really important for me right now? And if our parents are aging and we want to look after them and we want to prioritize them and, you know, work won't help us, then go with what matters if you can. And then it's, then we can then really kind of, you know, take stock again, because.

So much comes into play all at once. We do have to make some choices, and they're difficult choices. But you can make them, and this whole [00:07:00] sort of period of collision won't last forever.

[00:07:02] Eleanor Mills: Yeah, I think that's really important. And so one of the things that we're calling for, and we've called for at the Labour Party Conference and with policy makers, is that is for what we call life leave, Lucy and I, which is giving and making companies understand that when the midlife collision hits, and particularly if you've got a parent who's dying or say a teenager with an eating disorder or was suffering from an anxiety disorder, of course, those things are incredibly important for us to, to, to deal with as human beings.

It's really important that you're there as your parents are dying. It's really important. We're there for our kind of young people when they need us. And often those. Pinch points, and I talk a lot about the pinch points of midlife, are incredibly intense, but they don't last that long. So actually, a bit of life leave, maybe taking a six month sabbatical, could mean that the companies don't lose incredible experience and wisdom.

[00:07:51] Wendy Lloyd: Yeah, well, amen to that for this whole life leave, because it's a, it's a no brainer, and it would really shift things. dramatically. And the [00:08:00] final takeaway is, I also think it was really cool that Lucy brought up the fact about how just that kind of phase, this phase of midlife of Queen Agedom that we talk about, um, how it's not, you know, it's not a straightforward kind of set of fixed, um, ages.

And I thought it was a really important and interesting thing for us to, um, sort of, um, think about, because not only is it like, it's not specific ages, but it's also, we're not at, there's no fixed points that we're in, in there. And I think you talked about how you, you know, you got, you know, someone who's 54 years old with a five year old child.

[00:08:33] Eleanor Mills: Oh, I mean, we had, we had, um, two women at the last, uh, Broughton retreat who'd carried children in their fifties. Yeah, and you know, so this is a big game changer. Yeah, and also when you look at a queen ager, you have no idea whether she's a grandmother, whether she's child free. And of course, 30 percent of our community have, don't have kids and 40 percent of those have actively chosen not to.

That's me. Yeah, exactly. But I think it's so important that we're [00:09:00] inclusive about that. And also that you just, you just don't know where somebody is, um, on that spectrum. I was chatting to someone the other day and, um, she's about to be a great grandmother and she was in her late 50s because everybody's done things at different, um, different points.

So it's very important not to think that there's a one size fits all. But having said that, there are definite phases. Um, and I think the emptiness bit, you know, if you've been a parent and your kids leave, that is a real moment. That's as big a moment as when you have a kid for the first time. And of course the existential bit of losing your parents.

I think that that, you know, these are, these are huge kind of life kind of traumas and growth points that we all go through. But I think understanding those a bit and understanding how that impacts us as working people as we all live longer in the hundred year life is going to be crucial to keeping a kind of aging workforce happy.

[00:09:51] Wendy Lloyd: And it does also though, of course, you know, illustrate the complexity of it and how, you know, we do really have to kind of recognize the very specific things [00:10:00] going on for us. Um, as individuals and tailor our own expectations about what we, we can be doing and where we can be going. You know, as you were saying, you know, something worse than someone kind of going, oh, it's an opportunity.

It's like, if you've got a whole car crash of stuff going on. And as we're saying, it could be all manner of those things happening at once, or even just a couple of them can be an awful lot. So again, it's this whole idea of, um, yeah, tailoring your own expectations of. Where you ought to be and where you want to go and just to really, um, be kind to yourself and recognize that, you know, your journey will be different from other people who maybe you're very close to, but you know, you, you will find your way through it as long as you kind of like a true to yourself.

[00:10:45] Eleanor Mills: Yeah, and there's no ought in this. No. Yeah, there's really no ought and that everybody's solution is going to be different. Um, and I think we can't, we can't, um, talk about Lucy without talking about the wonderful language in her book. Because actually one of the bit that [00:11:00] really freaked me out was the language used about Queen H, it's, you know, frigid, frigid.

funny Dudley, spinster, hags, crones, frumps, I mean, so many pejorative words. Um, I mean, that's why I coined the term Queen Aja, because if ever anyone was in need of a rebrand, it was women in midlife.

[00:11:16] Wendy Lloyd: Um,

[00:11:16] Eleanor Mills: so I just, I just want to kind of, you know, call that out. Anyway, if you haven't read Lucy Ryan's book, Revolting Women, I highly recommend it.

To work with Wendy and be supported through your midlife reinvention, visit her website at Drama free you.com and book a free 30 minute coaching call. That's it for the Queen Agent Debrief. For more resources, check out our website, noon.org.uk and sign up to my weekly Queen Agent newsletter. And there's my book, much more to come.

Lessons on the magnificence and mayhem of Midlife, which has just been published by Harper Collins, thanks to our sponsor and begin the Age Renewal Skincare. We all like to look our healthiest, glowing best, particularly [00:12:00] in midlife, which is why Begin's expert dermatology team use gold standard ingredients to formulate the perfect skin solution uniquely for you.

It's just 4. 99 for your first bottle when you use the special code QUEENAGERPOD at Begin. com It's usually 29. 99 a bottle, so don't miss this terrific deal. Next time, we'll discuss what we learned from broadcaster, political campaigner, and maths whiz, Carol Vorderman.

[00:12:28] Dr Lucy Ryan: Because I rail against injustice, and particularly over the last 14, look at the mess this country is in, because of them.

Thanks for listening, and being a part of the QueenAger revolution.